Saturday, June 14, 2008

Colluding Ass Women - Feminism Benefits You Too

At the end of last month I came across a post entitled, "Why Is This Woman Against Feminism."  It prompted me to write, "Why Feminism Is A Necessity." To be completely above board I wrote the author, KellyMac to inform her that I had posted a response on my blog.  Since this time I have gotten alot of responses from her readers, and while most were very respectful I did gain a few trolls. Lucky me!!! Kelly posted a response to my commentary.  A 24 point response to be exact.  Being the stubborn, hysterical, angry womanist that I am, noooooo way is she getting the last word on this one. Had Kelly been a man, I probably would have let this go, but colluding ass women get on my nerves. They want all the benefits of feminism/womanism without admitting the privileges of patriarchy. Someone has to shake them loose from the Stockholm syndrome that they clearly are suffering with.  So strong is my dedication to women that I am willing once again, to wade into the muck of false identification.

In what follows, all commentary in blue is written by me.

1. Women still make 70 cents for every dollar a man makes, and the disparity is even larger for women of color. Not true, when you compare apples to apples. Here’s a wiki article – wiki being known for consistently deleting articles about Misandry and men’s rights.

Right, Wikki is exactly where I want to go to find a reliable source.  Does it occur to you that wikki can be edited by anyone.  Try and cite that on a university paper, and so how pretty the F looks beside your name. Clearly you need help finding sources...start with google scholar, or like I mentioned in my previous post the library. I'm not going to do all the work for you, I will  however get you started with this .. Researchers have found that less than half of the pay gap is due to men dominating in fields like engineering, and business.  The imbalance has to do with workplace characteristics like high performance systems, degree of foreign ownership, and rate of part time work (Drolet 2002) and to gender discrimination (Phillips & Phillips, 1993; Chaykowski & Powell, 1999, Cromption & Vickers, 2000)

2.The vast majority of women that are single mothers live in poverty, Actually, according to this link, 27.7% of custodial single mothers live in poverty, although in researching it, I did find statistics up to around 35%. However, given that women initiate 2/3 of divorce, and that women are most likely to gain custody, it kind of looks like the situation is mostly in the control of those same mothers.

Yep took the time to check out your link at About.com.  Yes I have no doubt that this may be an accurate statistic for the US, however the world is larger than the United States of America, believe it or not.  Step outside of your western privilege for just a sec...promise I'll throw you a rope so that you won't get lost.  Do you think that the single mothers in Iraq, Afghanistan, or India are living high on the hog?  Are they all welfare queens? By the way in the Islamic world men only need to say I divorce you three times while no such right exists for women.  In the case of divorce globally, women do not benefit.

3. daily the right to have an abortion is continually being assaulted Ok. And daily the right to have an abortion is defended as well. That’s called free speech. What’s your point? As far as I know, abortion is still legal.

My point dear is that slowly roe vs wade is being restricted.  If this continues the right to have an abortion will not exist.  In Canada Bill C-484 or the so-called unborn victim of crime act is attempting to roll back abortion.  Just as rights can be granted they can be removed.  Think of all the privacy you had before the reactionary Patriot Act.

4. Mothers that are married, and work outside of the home still perform most of the domestic duties, childrearing, and elder care. This constitutes a “double day. Could it be that a messy house bothers her more? Or that she doesn’t think he’ll do it right? Ask yourself this: are women being forced to do more housework, or are they choosing to make the house the way they want it? Besides all that, prove it. I submit that if both spouses work full time, they split up the chores – including running the kids all over town and cleaning the gutters.

Mothers do more work because of the historical division of labor. Men's work was in the public sector, and womens in the private sector.  To this day housework is still largely associated with women.  If this were not the case every single cleaning product would not direct their marketing at women.  They know damn well who cleans the house.  But you want a factual back up don't you...well here you go, and while you are at it, notice that it is a reputable source of information.  I don't need to turn to WIKKI to prove anything.  example 1, example 2, example 3.

5. Women bodies are constantly sexualized in the media. I challenge you to watch fifteen minutes of television without seeing the image of a half naked woman, selling us something we neither want, or need. And men are constantly belittled in our media. Not only that, but men are also sexualized in the media. Sex sells. You’re never going to change that. If you want to stop those ads, organize a boycott. Don’t complain about how powerless you are.

Yes the media does have a habit of portraying men as drooling dolts, but this in no way effects the global power structure of patriarchy.  This is exactly the opposite of how the world is run, and deep down even you have to admit that.  Men control the media, and an attempt by them to show men as victims of evil harping women belies the fact that in almost every industry you turn to, men are in positions of power.  There is a large difference between reality, and fantasy. As for the article that you directed me to, did you not see the racism in the ad?  There is a reason that the man that was selected was black.  This has more to do with race, than it does with gender.  It is an attempt to delegitimize black men ..a big black dick, no operating brains.  This is not new, look at the "lunchbox" campaigns that were directed at Linford Christie.

6. Daily for a small fee one can have access to violent pornography thus reifying our rape culture Ok, first off, the term “rape culture” is one that was made up by feminism to be used in women’s studies courses and to play on your fears. How safe do you think it is for a lone man to walk down a dark street in a rough neighborhood? Second, when you use the term “violent pornography”, you really mean “against women”. There’s a fair amount of femdomme porn out there as well. Ever seen the ones where a man is bound spread-eagle and kick in the crotch (as a very mild example)? Again, you get a half-truth.

Right because men routinely get raped, and note when it does happen it is usually done by other men...I am not saying that women do not assault men, what I am saying is that the majority of the sexual assaults that occur are perpetrated by MEN. Speaking of rape, how do you think the women of the Congo feel?  Oh, I forgot it is a made up term, and so I guess those women are only imaging that they are confronting rape on a daily basis.

Yes, again Femmedom Porn does exist, but like every other industry the porn industry is dominated by MEN.  It is largely created to satisfy the MALE GAZE...

7. hip hop is your thing, I can imagine how you might find it pleasant to hear women referred to as bitches and hos continually Here’s the thing about hip hop. If you don’t like it, don’t buy it. It isn’t a society-wide phenomenon. Freedom of speech, and all that.

Yes due to freedom of speech people spew all kinds of venom.  I of course stopped listening to any hip hop that contained woman hating lyrics, however that does not mean that I am not offended each, and every time I hear it. You don't need to actually buy it, to be exposed to it.  While hip hop does have its target audience, I must still interact with people who feel that this kind of misogynistic hate is ok.  Of course just like any agent of socialization (media) hip hop has an effect on its listeners. Nothing is ever innocent.

8. sexism that has been thrown at Hillary Clinton. My goodness a woman president, we cannot have that, when she gets her period she might be tempted to push the button. Where oh where will we hide the tampon dispenser in the Oval office? You see that office is the repository of male bodily fluids, and the cleaning staff are used to dealing with semen, and not blood. Ok, I’m not sure where this came from, but have you considered that maybe, just maybe, Mrs. Clinton isn’t the right woman for the job? I’m sure sexism has been thrown at her. I’m sure racism has been thrown at Obama. I’m sure infidelity has been thrown at someone else. And draft dodging. And anything else their opponents can come up with. Welcome to politics.

As I have stated in many posts, I am not a fan of Ms. Clinton, however I am even less a fan of the sexism that she had to endure during the race. It is not as simple as saying welcome to politics.  With her, they avoided debating the issues simply because they could count on a hatred of women.  What her run for office proved is that no matter what lip service we give to equality, we have not reached the point where women are taken seriously.  I simply cannot imagine a great debate amongst political pundits regarding the shrill like whine in either Obama or McCains voice. I cannot wait to see when these two face off, how many times they will be accused of being hysterical, or having a nagging quality to their tone.  Bet that won't happen because those are gender specific commentary.

9. Any idea where your clitoris is? Found it by accident didn’t you, because female sexual pleasure just isn’t taught in sex education classes. Wow. Do they teach male sexual pleasure in sex ed these days? Seems I remember learning about ovulation, semen production, std’s, stuff like that. Besides, I knew where my clitoris was long before sexual maturity, and not because of abuse. It’s actually pretty common.

If they are focusing on intercourse, then they are focusing on male sexual pleasure.  Most women need stimulation of the clitoris to achieve orgasm, and since that is not a high priority in sex-ed classes I would say that they are focusing on male sexual pleasure. This is what female centered sex education looks like.

10. barefoot, and pregnant This term was reportedly coined by a sexist legislator in 1963, and has been used ever since as a feminist catchphrase. You can do better than that.

Uuumm yeah, don't care who coined it, it's an accurate statement.

11. They just need to spread their legs when told, and feign pleasure at the mans will. I’m not sure where you’re going with this. Are you saying we’re all sex-slaves?

What I am saying is that when it comes to heterosexual sex there is a lack of reciprocity.

12. perfecting the skill of fellatio while ignoring the fact that your man thinks that cunnilingus is some foreign country off the coast of Italy. Throw the little man in the boat a life jacket, and buy a vibrator, it may be the only way you will ever have an orgasm See my comment on #11. Or you might try communicating with your man. Just a suggestion.

You think that it is because of a lack of communication...please...For every 10 times a man receives fellatio, he performs cunnilingus 3 times. In the western world heterosexual sex, has always been phalocentric.  It is only since feminism made sex an issue, that women have had the courage to demand sexual satisfaction.

13. it isn’t considered sex when lesbians are intimate. Is this why the rape scene in “The Vagina Monologues is so empowering?

I have no clue what you are talking about....I left the monologue the minute she encouraged men to say the word cunt...you will have to enlighten me on what your commentary is supposed to mean.

14. Did you know you stink? Don’t worry though there are douches for that, just don’t think about what it is doing to your natural chemistry My understanding is that douches are for occasional use only, and it’s better to use the unscented vinegar-based ones. Maybe they’re telling you something different these days? That’s marketing, just like the Gardasil commercials. Did you know that 85% of the deaths from cervical cancer in the last count could have been prevented if the women had chosen to get a pap smear?

My point is that products like douches prey upon the social construction of the foulness of the vagina. There is no need for a woman to douche whatsoever.  It's predatory.

15. Didn’t you know that women are supposed to all have hairless prepubescent bodies at all times, while men can go around looking like they belong in gorillas in the mist, with nary a batted eye Look at mass media advertising, and then ask your male friends what they prefer. I think you’ll find that preferences vary, especially when it comes to the prepubescent look. Shaving our pits and legs is part of grooming. Just like when men shave their faces, trim their beards, wear ties, all that stuff.

No we are only told that it is part of grooming.  Ask yourself why it is necessary to remove hair from the human body that does not impede someone's functionality?  Gasp...Could it be for male pleasure. As for the Brazilian trim, please tell me the last time you saw a model with a single pube sticking through her bathing suit, or around the bikini line?  The bald muff is not about female pleasure, it is once again about the male gaze...No woman sat around one day and thought that it would be a great idea to poor hot wax on her vagina.  I can think of much better ways to spend an afternoon.

16. diet industry is dependent on your desire to conform to the ideal female form to maintain profits. Don’t worry though Jenny Craig will love you, for every dollar of your meager disposable income that you spend trying to get into an unachievable size o. Do you have any money left after purchasing your high sodium diet food? The diet industry is as bad as the pharmaceutical industry. Successful advertising is not the same as coercion. Besides, how many home gyms and protein powders are sold because men are supposed to be muscular and cut?

Right, right the money made by targeting women does not far exceed the money that is made from targeting men. Women don't succumb to anorexia and, bulimia trying to attain these unrealistic images at a much higher rate than men...no ones fault though, everyone is innocent.  When we give a girl a Barbie Doll, we don't set the stage for unrealistic body images...nope, not at all..the ideal body image that is crafted for women has no effect on our gender psyche at all.  Just one mass hysterical delusion. Just wondering while you are at it, do you want to tell me how easy obese women have it as well?

18. man, who even though he is five years older than you is becoming distinguished while you look dried up, and used. There are evolutionary reasons for older men being attractive to us – they represent someone more established and able to support us. As for older women looking dried up and used, I don’t think I agree with you. Yes, we lose our firmness and suppleness, but if we go into it gracefully, I think older women can be very beautiful. You can’t expect to always look fertile. Blame the primitive brain, not sexism.

Totally missed the point didn't you.  I am saying that the media presents older men as sexy, alluring etc whereas once a woman hits 40 she is done for. Michael Douglas weds Catherine Zeta Jones, not a word said. Demi Moore gets it on with Ashton Cutcher, and she is a cradle robber.

19. You see, you took so much time out of the workforce to raise children, and take care of your elderly parents that it has effected your retirement benefits. Should you have the misfortune to outlive your spouse, and loose his share of benefits you will become a regular at food banks, and soup kitchens. Even with the discounts you will get for being a senior, economically life will be very hard for you. If you choose to stay home and raise the kids, that’s the choice you make. I don’t know about you, but I’ve been putting money into retirement since I was 30 years old. You have to take care of these things yourself, instead of expecting someone else to do it.

Here we go on the privilege roller coaster again.  You are able to save in your class bracket, ask yourself how women who are living in poverty are doing?  How will retirement benefit their already meager income. Glad to know that you support stay at home moms too, so woman positive of you.  A woman staying at home to raise children is providing a valuable service to society, and she should not be penalized economically for doing so.  While she may have removed herself from the labor market, society will benefit from the labor of her children. One other point, in most cases where a woman stays home, the husband is in a high stress, high income job.  These jobs require a support staff to be maintained, or do you believe he still picks up his own dry cleaning? The husbands ability to function is directly related to the wife performing labor in the household.

20. “Ninety percent of girls reported experiencing sexual harassment at least once. Specifically, 67 percent of girls reported receiving unwanted romantic attention, 62 percent were exposed to demeaning gender-related comments, 58 percent were teased because of their appearance, 52 percent received unwanted physical contact and 25 percent were bullied or threatened with harm by a male. 52 percent of girls also reported receiving discouraging gender-based comments on the math, science and computer abilities, usually from male peers, and 76 percent of girls reported sexist comments on their athletic abilities, again predominantly from male peers.”( a study I quoted from) Yes, but what is unwanted sexual attention? “Hey baby, give me your ass”, or “You look really sexy in that short dress”? Who isn’t teased because of their appearance? I’ve worn glasses since the 3rd grade, had acne since 6th grade. Trust me. I got teased. What about the boy who isn’t buff and wealthy? Think he’s not getting teased? Think again. That’s only your first few statistics. Question the rest of them.

Unwanted sexual attention speaks for itself.  This isn't about teasing, this about male ownership of the female body.  Ask yourself why you don't see hordes of women catcalling men?

21. Feminist theory is fluid, and constantly changing to meet the diverse needs of women Ah, here’s where you throw in the “all the bad stuff isn’t REAL feminism”. The convenient denial.

Actually, I am saying that unlike you colluding women, feminism does not always create a monolithic representative woman.  Just as there are many different kinds of leftist theories, there are various forms of feminist theory.  Each one has a different set of organizing principles, outcomes, and goals, but you would know that if you studied feminism beyond a Rush Limbaugh rant.

22. Simply stating the facts of the lived experience of women does not constitute the demonization of men. Why should women deny the horrors of their daily lives so that men can have a feel good experience? I never said stating the facts of our lived experience constitutes the demonization of men. I said blaming men for everything bad that has ever happened does. Is your daily life really a horror? Really?

Again this is not about me as a person.  It is about the lived experience of all women.  I certainly would not presume to think that my life mirrored that of a woman living in South Africa, or Iceland.  What I am stating is that each, and every time women confront patriarchy, we are told that we are picking on men. Heaven forbid they own their gender privilege.

23. men have been slaughtering women since the beginning of time. I couldn’t find a source that said this. Do you have one?

Cute..do the work yourself.  Men have killed women plain, and simple. Open your local paper, I am sure you will find one incident of violence by a man against a woman. 

24. Now with the aid of technology we are killed before we can even take our first breath. It is called femicide The only information I found about femicide deals with the killing of female fetuses in India. Which is absolutely horrible. But I’m a little confused. If abortion is ok, but femicide is wrong, then that only leaves the murder of male fetuses. Is this really what you’re trying to say?

Are you serious?....oh well, When a woman chooses to have an abortion because she cannot afford another child, or she simple does not want to be a mother, that is completely understandable, and acceptable.  Femicide occurs because males are valued more than females.  These abortions are coerced quite often, and they are occurring simply because the child in question is female. Abortion should not occur due to gender.

I cannot believe I made my way through all of that. Well despite the vitriol from the trolls that I got from my original post, and this response from KellyMac, I have emerged unscathed.  I have a challenge for you, take the time to think about the different ways that gender has had an impact on your life.  In each, and every single incident who has benefited?  Think outside of your personal experience, and image the life of a woman half way across the world.  What may not effect you, could be a major factor limiting her life chances. I personally identify as a womanist because I find that to be a more inclusive form of feminism, but that does not mean that I am not aware of how the social construction of gender impacts men. Take an intersectional approach to examine the different ways in which the isms combine to act as stigmatizers.  While each person must necessarily confront sites of oppression, they must also acknowledge the ways in which they are privileged. The two go hand, in hand.

Feminism is more than what you see on the evening news, and it is certainly not the hateful theory that is presented.  Keep in mind that the people most vocal in their hatred of feminism, largely neglect to mention the ways in which they continue to benefit from the oppression of women.  I cannot tell you what to think, in fact that is not my intent...I only ask you, isn't it worth your while to just take a moment to question?  I don't even recognize the feminism that you are decrying as a form of legitimate feminist theory, and so perhaps your idea of feminism is wrong period.  As I mentioned there are various forms of feminism to suit the diversity of women on this planet.  I will just name a few, eco-feminism, radical feminism, liberal feminism, post structural feminism, Marxist feminism, post-colonial feminism etc and etc...before you decide that feminism is bad, take the time to look at the various forms of feminism, their organizing principles, and outcomes, you might just find one that you like.

 

 

27 comments:

Ebony Intuition said...

Ok by the time she got to question #3 she couldn't even back any of her arguments anymore..

and
23. men have been slaughtering women since the beginning of time. "I couldn’t find a source that said this. Do you have one?"

Is she really that STUPID, she couldn't find a source for men killing women since the beginning of time. WOW...

paddybrown said...

Kelly: "the term “rape culture” is one that was made up by feminism"

You: "Speaking of rape, how do you think the women of the Congo feel? Oh, I forgot it is a made up term, and so I guess those women are only imaging that they are confronting rape on a daily basis."

One, Kelly never said that rape didn't exist, so your rhetoric is dishonest.

Two, my brother worked in the Congo, and while the incidence of rape is a lot higher than it is in the west, it is outrageous exaggeration to say that women there "confront [it] on a daily basis". War atrocities happen, but not as often as that. Men, incidentally, confront a greater risk of being killed in such atrocities.

You: "the porn industry is dominated by MEN. It is largely created to satisfy the MALE GAZE..."

The "male gaze", whether capitalised or not, is female resentment of male sexual pleasure, which, as I said in my comment to the previous post, is nothing more than spite.

You have not addressed my points about confirmation bias, but your comments about "collusion" give you away. You appear to believe the sexes are at war, and that any attempt at diplomacy is treason. In that case, I doubt there's any prospect of dialogue.

Renee said...

reply@ paddybrown

One, Kelly never said that rape didn't exist, so your rhetoric is dishonest.

She said that there was no such thing as a rape culture, and I am saying that the situation in the congo proves otherwise. It is part of the local superstition that raping a woman makes one invisible to the enemy. Some men believe that a woman who has been raped has done her patriotic duty to the country. Some men believe that raping a woman will cure them of AIDS or protect them from disease. These myths have spread throughout the country thus constituting a culture of rape. It is literally part of the national imagination, and conversation.

"Two, my brother worked in the Congo, and while the incidence of rape is a lot higher than it is in the west, it is outrageous exaggeration to say that women there "confront [it] on a daily basis". War atrocities happen, but not as often as that. Men, incidentally, confront a greater risk of being killed in such atrocities."

suggest you view the documentary rape in the Congo. I believe it was released in April. BTW I have very little sympathy for the men that declare war and cry when men die. How many global conflicts can you name that have been initiated by women?

The "male gaze", whether capitalized or not, is female resentment of male sexual pleasure, which, as I said in my comment to the previous post, is nothing more than spite.

No it's hardly spite to say male gaze...it simply means a male sexual perspective, just as a female gaze would imply a female sexual perspective. This is an example of you interpreting my words rather than accepting them at face value.

"but your comments about "collusion" give you away. You appear to believe the sexes are at war, and that any attempt at diplomacy is treason. In that case, I doubt there's any prospect of dialogue."

When I use the word collusion it means tp identify with men that are clearly misogynistic in nature. I don't believe that the sexes are at war. I do believe that there are men that own their male privilege. I do believe that men, and women can be allies in the struggle to end sexism, however I think that it is foolish for a woman to defend men who are clearly only interested in maintaining the current power structure, which is oppressive towards women. Other examples of colluders would be women that have FGM performed on their daughters, women that perform breast ironing on their daughters, women that play stupid to get a date, women that allow men to do all the thinking for them, women who vote for McCain because HRC is out. Basically when I use the term colluder, it means a woman that does not act in her best interest consistently to please a man. Or a woman that harms another woman for the benefit of a man. If the genesis of an action or a thought always begins with a male point of view rather than the individual agency of a woman, then yes you are a colluder.

As for addressing your commentary, since this conversation started with Kelly it was my obligation to respond to her first. I will go back through the commentary section and specifically look to see what question of yours I did not answer.

I will also point out that it is not I who made this conversation adversarial. I am pro woman, just as I am pro child, anti-poverty,and anti rape and that will never ever change. I am a committed humanist and against all forms of oppression whether or not they impact me personally or not. It would seem to me that it is you who are content to look at things through a small lens, by speaking in generalities, and making assumptions about my intent.

Queen of Puddings said...

I am intrigued by "Kelly" and would like to know more about her. How has her own background informed her opinions? Is she a high-flying businesswoman? A stay-at-home mom? Both? Are her opinions informed or influenced by faith or other belief systems? Is she surrounded by happy women who "have it all"?

Sadly, the "About" page on her site has been left blank.

Ebony Intuition said...

There's also a rape culture in South Africa.

This is a very good source that shows the un-equality that women face around the world mainly in 3rd world countries (and lets not forget that these countries that are called 3rd world are poor because WESTERN COUNTRIES & EUROPE & CHINA ARE "RAPING" THEIR RESOURCES.

http://www.globalissues.org/

I bet Kelly won't be able to find a source for that ...

Anonymous said...

ebony intuition: "Is she really that STUPID, she couldn't find a source for men killing women since the beginning of time. WOW..."

I note that you don't provide one either. If this is a universal truth that everyone knows, then it should be easy for you to provide a source.

Look, here's the thing: humans kill other humans. Because of testosterone, men are far more violent than women. But - men kill other men much more often than they kill women.

That's the way that our species behaves. We all kill each other, but men are usually the victims. In her first post, Renee said that men "slaughter" women. That's the part that's wrong because it implies that women are more often victims.

And here's a source for what I just said: Bryan Sykes; The Seven Daughters of Eve: The Science That Reveals Our Genetic Ancestry; W.W. Norton, 2001

In summary, evolution theory and DNA evidence proves beyond any doubt that throughout the 130,000 year history of our species, men have had higher mortality than women. Men have always died while women have lived. Those are the facts.

Renee said...

reply @ anonymous: so you want me to admit that men kill each other more often than they kill women? fine no problem because guess what it does not detract from my argument that men kill women....

Ebony Intuition said...

Well lets see obviously women live because women give BIRTH men can not, but if a women is raped that leads to complications when giving birth.

Would you liked to be raped, tortured, beaten, while your pregnant then give birth to a child, hmmm ????

You see it everyday on the news, women being shot, killed , raped, stabbed etc...The source is already in front of our eyes. I personally know a female who was murdered by gun violence (http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20060208/chantelle_dunn_060208/20060208?hub=TorontoHome), I personally know a more then 2 females who have been raped, I personally know a female who has been stabbed.. Those are my sources (REAL LIFE, REALITY)...not a book that you had to go and find in a library..!!!!!

Ebony Intuition said...

"fine no problem because guess what it does not detract from my argument that men kill women...."

Exactly, yes men do get killed by other men but the point that "Anonymous" and Kelly seem to be missing is that men still kill women. Women aren't running around killing women its MEN..

Archivist said...

"Right because men routinely get raped, and note when it does happen it is usually done by other men." What the hell does that mean? It implies (don't deny it) that men are all the same -- that we're rapists. I suppose unfair gender stereotyping is only wrong when it's directed at people who look like you. While we're on the subject, objectively verifiable data suggests that at least 9 percent and probably closer to half of all rape claims are false. The lies are almost entirely told by women. Yet the crime of making a false rape report has become so embroiled in the feminist sexual assault milieu that it has been largely, and improperly, removed from the public discourse about rape. Sexual assault counselors often disingenuously refer to false accusations as a "myth." Denigrating the experience of the falsely accused by dismissing their victimization as a myth is not merely dishonest but morally grotesque

Renee said...

Reply @ archivisit
What the hell does that mean? It implies (don't deny it) that men are all the same -- that we're rapists.

Actually I have no need to imply anything. Womanist Musings is a safe space for me and as such I speak my mind quite clearly. I did not state that all men are rapists you are extrapolating because your vitriolic attack is emotion based and illogical. When I write something take me at my word. Most rapists are men, that is what the commentary said and nothing more than that.
Point number two...while your rage may be sufficient to silence other women, don't ever attempt to tell me what I can or cannot say on my blog. I respect your right to speech and to have your own opinion but I demand the same not only for myself but for everyone else that chooses to comment here.

lujlp said...

@ebony The pint that men also kill women wasnt missed. The point is that society doest care as much when men kill each other so incidents of men killing women get more air time. Also it is extremely dishonest of renee to say that men kill women as if it were something we had set out to do soley to women, rather than it being simply a minority part of all conflicts between cultures and individuals.

re:porn - I have to agree with paddy, there seems to be a general dismisal and demonization of male sexuality. Porn for guys is easy we are, for the most part, visually stimulated at a level that women, for the most part, simply are not. As for 'rape' and 'bdsm' porn, I seriously doubt the women preforming are unwilling.

re:rape culture
renee when you mentioned rape culture you infered it as existing in the first world. You never mentioned the congo until this response. Perhaps if you had Kelly would have responded differently.

@ebony re: 3rd world countries
The governments of those countries are more than willing to screw over their own people. If they arent willing to stand up for themselves why should we do it for them?

Renee said...

reply@lujlp

First I want to say thanks for a calm and measured response. Though we disagree I appreciate that you do it respectfully. There are quite a few trolls that could take a lesson from you.

renee when you mentioned rape culture you infered it as existing in the first world. You never mentioned the congo until this response. Perhaps if you had Kelly would have responded differently.

No you inferred that meaning to my statement. I really do think that this comes down to a break down in communication. What I have seen from these responses is that many are content to only apply one understanding of feminism to this debate whereas there are a multitude of feminist theories. Anyone experienced with feminist theory would have seen that I was applying many different approaches in my response specifically to highlight the diversity of feminism.
Because we view the world through a world of western privilege we have a tendency to apply any and all arguments to a western lens unless specifically directed to consider third world women or bodies of color. As a committed womanist (yet another form of feminism) bodies of color are a starting place in terms of organizing principles and theoretic applications. Think about the name of the blog...WOMANIST MUSINGS..by that very title I am infering which set of theory I predominately operate under. I know that you have at least scanned over my blog and I am sure that you cannot help to have noticed that I am critical of second wave radical white feminists ownership view of feminism. This in and of itself should highlight to you the discord in feminism. This discord can only exist if there are different forms of feminism.

lujlp said...

I'll not repost the point counter point and final respone. I'll just number and give my overall response

1.Comparing men and women as a whole I am quite sure that women make less then men. But compare and male and female nerosurgen with the same schooling, same number of years working for the same hospital, and I'd be willing to bet thay are making the ame amount of money. Also psycholically men are differnt from women so they are more likley to be aggresive when renegotiating their wages. If women arent willing to take the ame risks should they really get the ame rewards? That question swings both ways on gender fyi.

2.renee you never mentioned 3rd wrold countries in your first response. Also since were giving personal accounts, when my familly was forced into abuse councelling(dont know why they wouldnt arrest my stepmother) we met some interesting charecters in our group. One women had 5 kids by 7 guys(logically impossible but she didnt know who 3 of the kids fathers were) and proudly told us how she would sabatoge her jobs in order to get fired and collect unemployment and out of court settlements by threating to sue the(in her words) "horrible company who abused and fired the poor ingle working mother just trying to provide a better life for her kids"

3. renee fundies are just as interested in outlawing porn, sex, smilling, happiness as they are in outlawing abortion. That may sound crass and insensitive to you, and what the hell it is but give it a few more yrs and once the rapture fails to happen you wont have to worry about christians trying to outlaw abortion, you will have to worry about muslisms doing it though.

4. Your links are down, but as a guy I can tell you clutter doesnt matter much to me. I'll clean the bathroom, but I wont make my bed(really whats the point?) I'll rinse the dishes but I'll wait until there is a full load befroe I bother washing them. Women I've notice from personal experience seem bother by the slightest amount of dust or clutter and if they insist on cleaning it up thats up to them, no one is forcing it upon them.

5.Most advertising is directed at women, and if comapnie use sex to sell so what? I dont hear you complaining about the women who appear in such ads. Whats good for the gander and all that.

6.Women are generally not turned on visually. And true to feminist form if it isnt the way a woman does it, then it must be wrong and stopped. This is why you have laws the get men arrested or fired for looking at the clevage a woman shows when she doesnt button her blouse all the way up. Nor am I saying she has to. My only point is if your going to display it in a manner tht everyone can see you shouldnt be too suprised when someone acctually sees it. And as for rape cuture, again you never mentioned 3rd world countries in your original post.

7.I cant say I disagree with you here, but there are all kinds of hatespeach targeting all sections of society. If you are willing to admit that a fair amount targets men as well, I'll be willing to accept that you site is targeted twords womens issues even though those same issuse overlap mens issues as well.

8.Politics is a dirty business, at they will attack you on any front. Clinton got it because she is a woman, Obama got it on the religous front, McCain had no real opponets which is why he had such smooth sailing. AS far as Clinton goes -I think the reason it got so bad for her is because it because obvious fairly early on she wasnt going to get the numbers to win. And even after Obama won it took her nearly a week to admit it, it was her personality not her sex that did her in.

9. Not sure when you last went to school but the only thing the teach these days is abtinence, which let me assure you is NOT plesuarble to men

10.Given most guys dont want kids the statment really is not accurate at all

11.The lack of reciprocity is soley a womans fault. Guys are the same we have the ONE major zone. Sure you have the occasional kink - I like to be bitten, but women are different ech clit is different, what worked on one wont always work on another, and I have had 3 women dump me beacuse they said I never got them off, My question, once they were willing to talk about it, was why didnt they ever say anything. Every time, and everytime a girl has answered that question to my friends was "I didnt want to hurt your feelings" LIke getting dumped for no reason,finding out you were no good in bed for her, and discovering she activley lied to you wouldnt hurt our feelings. You want to get off, spell it out we are more than happy to follow directions becuase a woman who enjoys having sex will most likely want to have more sex and that is something all men will work hard for. And if you with an asshole who wont do ut dupm his ass and find someone who will

12. Same as above
13. Where did you get that? Moral censors obviouls disagree with you otherwise they wouldnt rate movies showing it NC17 in an atemot to prevent the public from watching it

14.Dont know anyhting about this subject

15. Some men like hair some dont, big deal, why is it so wrong to do something that makes your partner happy. Again that goes for both sexes

16.Most marketing is directed at women because women spend more money. And boys commit suicide at higher rates than girls. Also whenfood is pentiful slim bodies are ideal becuase they represent health, when food is scarce fat women are they ideal beacuse they represent health as everyone else is starving to death.

17. why did you kip this one?

18. Ever hear of MILFS?

19.If a man leaves his job to care for parents or children h is in the same boat. See the problem with feminism is it demands not equal opportunity but equal results.

Feminism says that the female general practioner who runs a pediatic office between 9 and 5 should get the same pay as a cardio surgeon who works 100 hrs a week. Oddly enough were the sexes eversed in this senario feminisim wouldnt demand that the man and woman be paid they same - and it is that inhernt double stanndard that pisses so many people off

21. the thing about rush is poeple will call him out on his shit, you rarley see any femint saying another feminist crossed the line

22.Again you fail to metion 3rd world countries until this reponse, and I highly dount th experience on men in 3rd world countires mirors than of men in 1st world countries.

23.men have not been slaugtering women. Slaugter denotes a sinister conotation. I'm not denying that men have killed women - but you make is sound like an orchestrated plot to kill women soley for the purpose of killing women and that is insanely gyno centric. People are animals they kill to survive to aquire, and with our unique brain consturtion we kill over emotion as well. But it is by no means a plot targeted at women

24.Kelly provied a reference on india, you have yet to provide anyother, do you have any other?

I'll repond to #20 on it own post

lujlp said...

#020 Your resonse gave 8 stats but the link to the abstrat gave only 3 stats.

Did you buy the study or find it elsewhere?

I sent an email to the authors of the study asking for a list of the questions that were asked of the subjects but have yet to recive a response.

My only problem with the stats you provided is the first 4 stats make no metion of the behavior as comming primarily from males as the final 4 did.

And given the subjective nature many questions have I would prefer to see the wording of those questions before accepting them.

Unwanted phyical contact could be someting as harmless as being pojed in the sholder depending on the framing of the question

lindabeth said...

I ditto ebony intuition...I couldn't stomach much past the first few. This one stuck out to me though as especially problematic:

2.The vast majority of women that are single mothers live in poverty, Actually, according to this link, 27.7% of custodial single mothers live in poverty, although in researching it, I did find statistics up to around 35%. However, given that women initiate 2/3 of divorce, and that women are most likely to gain custody, it kind of looks like the situation is mostly in the control of those same mothers.

WOW. So since women "choose" divorce, they are responsible for their resulting poverty. That if mothers don't want to be poor, they shouldn't be single.

This is a very common attitude, and is high evidence about the marriage-centrism and yeah, I'll say it, coercion in our society. In a truly free society, marriage should not be necessary to economic survival and is not any way to legitimate poverty and gender discrimination.

Renee said...

well said lindabeth...

lujlp said...

re: divorce

When women choose divorce due to abuse thats one thing. Due to infidelity that is a personal choice. When women choose divorce out of boredom or revenge I have no sympathy.

My mother left my father becuase he was abusive. We were sitting around talking the other day. She was telling the story of her first night in LA with me age 4 and my sister age 2. After dropping us off at her sisters place she borrowed their car and went out job hunting. She got hired as an office cleaner and went to work the next day. AS her firdt shift was ending Donahue was playing on the TV in the break room.

As my mother tells it there was a woman on the show whining about how hard her life was. She had had an affair becuase her husband was never around, apparntly working to provide her a home wasnt a god excuse. When her husband found out he moved out, a few weeks later when he said he might be able to forgive her she told him not to come back and filed for divorce.

She got the house and custody, but she never had enough money cause her no good ex quit his high paying job to get one that would let him spend more time with her before she filed the papers on him.

Because of all these horrible things that had happened to her - none of which were her fault. She needed welfare cause she had to stay home and raise the kids,, but alimony and child support from her husbands new job wasnt giving her enough money.

The "kids" were 22, 19, and 17. And the house was 3 yrs from being paid off before she decided to refinace the loan.

Now is this story typical of divorced single mothers? I doubt it, but I doubt it is that uncommon either.

lindabeth said In a truly free society, marriage should not be necessary to economic survival and is not any way to legitimate poverty and gender discrimination.

I agree with her, but the guys most of these women divorce are living in poverty themselves and together I doubt most of these couples were that far above the line before the divorce.

But lets look at this from a guys perspective. Your not abusive your not an asshole and one day you come home and find out your wife is leaving you. More than likley she'll get the kids as primary care giver, probably get the house to house them in.

You go to court to find out how horrible you are for never being home, find out you'll get to see the kids every other weekend if your lucky(assuming she doent move out of state) and you now have to supprot two households on the income that once supported only one. Is it really any wonder that these people drop below the poverty line?

Ofcourse thats a good divorce, wonder how a bad goes?
10yrs without seeing your kids

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1025359/Justice-4-father-says-daughter-rooftop-protester.html

crella said...

"Is she really that STUPID, she couldn't find a source for men killing women since the beginning of time. WOW..."

Kelly has to back up every statement, but Renee doesn't? Isn't it the one who makes the assertion that has to back it up?

Octogalore said...

Renee, if this isn't the last word, it should be. Powerful takedown.

I wonder if Kelly is actually Caitlin Flanagan?

paddybrown said...

>> One, Kelly never said that rape didn't exist, so your rhetoric
>> is dishonest.

> She said that there was no such thing as a rape culture, and I am
> saying that the situation in the congo proves otherwise. It is
> part of the local superstition that raping a woman makes one
> invisible to the enemy.

I'd like some kind of reference for that - sounds like war propaganda, along the lines of bayoneting babies in incubators, only with an extra bit of "Dark Continent" prejudice. As far as I know, rape in the Congo is part of a wider war culture - which is not intended to minimise it, just to get a bit of balance. When society breaks down, atrocities happen, but not just against women. Rape is one weapon of many.

> BTW I have very little sympathy for the men that declare war and
> cry when men die. How many global conflicts can you name that
> have been initiated by women?

Er, are you accusing me of declaring war? And if I could find a women who started a local conflict, would that not count?

Every woman who has had the power to make war has done so - sometimes out of necessity, sometimes out of opportunism, same as male political leaders. There's a famous ancient Greek play called Lysistrata, where a group of women end a war by witholding sex from their husbands. But the important thing to remember about Lysistrata is that it's a work of fiction written by a man. Women are no nicer or more pacifist than men, no matter how often men wishfully imagine or women pretend otherwise.

>> The "male gaze", whether capitalized or not, is female
>> resentment of male sexual pleasure, which, as I said in my
>> comment to the previous post, is nothing more than spite.

> No it's hardly spite to say male gaze...it simply means a male
> sexual perspective, just as a female gaze would imply a female
> sexual perspective. This is an example of you interpreting my
> words rather than accepting them at face value.

You know very well what the "male gaze" catchphrase means. When you used it as a criticism of pornography, with no further argument or elaboration, you made it clear you regard it as something bad, not merely something subjective.

> When I use the word collusion it means tp identify with men that
> are clearly misogynistic in nature. I don't believe that the
> sexes are at war.

Then perhaps you should find a better word than one that means treacherously collaborating or covertly aiding an enemy.

> I do believe that there are men that own their male privilege.
> I do believe that men, and women can be allies in the struggle to
> end sexism, however I think that it is foolish for a woman to
> defend men who are clearly only interested in maintaining the
> current power structure, which is oppressive towards women.

"Male privilege", like "male gaze", is a catchphrase of a a poisonous ideology that will accept a man's good intent only if he abases himself and denies his own point of view, identity and dignity. In a world where women routinely get lesser sentences than men for exactly the same crime, live longer but get to retire earlier, earn a quarter less money yet somehow spend four times as much, make up a tiny fraction of the homeless yet have half of all hostel accommodation reserved for them, I cannot accept that privilege is a one-way street.

Feminism arrives at an entirely misleading impression of male power and privilege by only looking up. The few at the very top are mostly men - but so are the many at the very bottom. Perhaps this is a consequence of female hypergamy - wanting to "marry up", above where you are in the social hierarchy. Male nature is competitive, there are many more losers than winners, and women despise losers. Perhaps it's simple confirmation bias, or a combination of both.

lujlp said...

Technically there hae only been two 'global conflicts'

But if you want a woman who started a war how about
Boadicea, Mary Queen of Scots, Ahhotep, Joan of Arc, and Cleopatra

The Biscuit Queen said...

Men are 3 times as likely to be killed from violent crime than women. They are 4 times more likely to be assaulted.

Women and men commit domestic violence at the same rates according to every independantly conducted equitably framed research study. When men and women are asked if they have been or have done things like stabbed, struck, threw things, choked, etc, men and women reported doing and have had done to them these things at the same rates. Only when the questions are framed in a gender biased way or when they depend on arrest records do women show up victims and men perps.

We are all capable of violence. Women do stalk and kill men, at growing rates today. It is putting your head in the sand to deny this. They also rape and commit child homocide and abuse. Women are 60% of all child abusers. We have no idea how many children have been sexually molested by women because for so long it was ignored.

Bad behavior is human, not gender related.

José, The Fenec. said...

Just by curiosity, since men higher part in killing is due to their higher biologically conditioned agressiveness, then what is you sugestion, to medicate them all just to be safe?

And how about women part on selecting the most agressive males? If there are any today, it's because women select them. Even free to choose partner women tend to choose agressive and fisically imponent men, it's not their cultural background it's biological, so... How about medicating women too? How about wiping out of our genes any tendecy for sexuallity since sexuallity when allowed to be expressed will always be harmfull to women? If things have always being this way, what on earth makes you believe that any artificial feminist construction of what a society and gender roles should be, will be any more functional? The only thing we see is feminism gaining ground, on expression and decision making power, at the same time we see society to become more violent and disfunctional.

Renee said...

@jose when you have a legitimate argument come back.

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