Monday, June 16, 2008

Feminism - What You Don't Know Could Fill A Handbook

I have recently been engaged in a conversation with a colluder. What you may ask,  is a colluder. A colluder is a woman that disavows feminism for men's rights.  Believe it of not, there are are a lot of those women out there.  They feel that feminism has reached all of its goals, and that the women that are complaining today aren't interested in equality...oh no, we are interested in ruling men.  Since females in roles of power are counter gender norms, this simply cannot be tolerated.

I identify as a womanist, and as such I favor a woman centered agenda.  This is a fact that I proudly claim.  I consider womanism as falling under the umbrella of feminism, but having its own unique branch so to speak.  The fissures in feminism have largely been a private affair. In fact until the recent presidential bid of HRC, most people were unaware that feminism even came in waves. You see, post structural feminists have hidden in academia arguing over language, and accessibility, though few can understand them, DIY, have been busy doing, and largely ignored by the mainstream, and anti-racists have been silenced, while quietly being ushered off of the stage.  This has allowed white second, and third wave feminists to largely frame the debate within the media.

When someone says they are against feminism, my first response is, really what kind of feminism do you have a problem with.  This usually draws blank stares. Feminism in the public discourse means one thing, despite the fact that no monolithic woman exists. I then do the rundown of the different kinds of feminism, as I watch the eyes of listener roll. No they insist, feminism is all about privileging women over men.  Women have the vote, and equality before the law so all of the problems have been solved.

It occurs to me that feminism suffers from the same image problem that POC do.  We are expected to speak with one specific voice, and yet we all know that life experience causes different needs, and desires.  A WOC living in Canada (me) will have very different needs than say a black South African woman, yet we are both black.  Similarly a white suburban, mini van driving, soccer mom will have a completely different focus, than an urban 20 something New York socialite. I have found that no matter how many times I point out that women have different experiences, the response I get back is usually framed within the idea that vagina equals one large collective brain.  The hive sort of mentality that is attributed to feminism is harmful. My feminism speaks to who I am as a person, it speaks to my needs, and desires, and it is certainly not representative of women at large.

Many have been upset that the fissures in feminism have been made public.  The idea that an anti-racist feminist, would critique a Marxist feminist of ignoring the impact of race is something that the public at large simple cannot comprehend. Even the volley that is passed between sex positive feminists, and radical feminists in reference to sex work is kept under wraps, and only discussed within feminist circles.  To admit that there are differences some contend is diluting the movement, and counter to the progression of womens issues. In actuality a diversity of voices is only counter to those that believe that they have the right to represent feminism to the world. I am tired of a small minority of women representing feminism, and asserting an authority that they were never granted.  Not only are they not capable of speaking for me, they are not even remotely capable of understanding what my life experience is like.  It is time for those of us who identify beyond the second/third wave to step onto the stage.   Whether you are an eco, socialist, sex positive, queer,DIY, anti-racist, etc, make your voice heard.  You have just as much right to represent feminism as the squeaky wheels that are currently doing to the talk show, and book signing circuit.

Perhaps if more people where to understand the diversity of feminism we wouldn't have the backlash that we do today.  We must admit when there are colluding women that refuse to identify as feminist yet regularly spout the preciosities of feminist theories within their daily lives, that there are identity issues that need to be addressed. They believe in equal rights for women but declare that they are not feminists.  They believe in equal pay for equal work but declare that they are not feminists.  These denials can only be because what is understood as feminism is non representative of a multitude of women. The only way to advance feminism is to admit our differences.  Instead of seeing the fractures as airing dirty laundry, we should view it as opportunity to create a movement where more women will be comfortable identifying themselves.  The more women that are dedicated to advancing the cause of feminism, the greater the possibility that something new, and inspiring will be achieved.  So the next time you run into a colluder, ask her, what kind of feminism do you have a problem with.

48 comments:

juju said...

Great post.

I really like this point:
"To admit that there are differences some contend is diluting the movement, and counter to the progression of womens issues. In actuality a diversity of voices is only counter to those that believe that they have the right to represent feminism to the world."

What I find irritating is the idea that if you have a different/more inclusive idea of what "feminism" means, well then you must have internalized sexism and want to focus on men.

Habladora said...

"I have found that no matter how many times I point out that women have different experiences, the response I get back is usually framed within the idea that vagina equals one large collective brain. The hive sort of mentality that is attributed to feminism is harmful. My feminism speaks to who I am as a person, it speaks to my needs, and desires, and it is certainly not representative of women at large."

This is really honest, and will have me thinking for awhile. I have been thinking a lot about this sort of thing, largely because I've recently met groups of colluders in places I'd least expect them.

I really hope you are writing that feminism hand book...

lujlp said...

You want to know why people assume feminisim has a vigina centered hive mentality?

http://www.nownys.org/pr_2008/pr_011108.html

Because a the leader of a NOW chapter accused all men who did not vote for Clinton of being gang rapists.

She accused my little brothers, 17, 14, & 12 of being gang rapists when they were brought up t do what feminists claim they wanted - to treat the girls in thier class the same as they treat they guys.

And what was the response to this nutjob's psychotic rant? Nary a word of objection.

Your fathers, your brothers, your children, labeld as RAPISTS becuse they didnt vote they way this woman felt they should or becuse they act like children when they are in fact children.

And not a word of protest to be seen from other feminist leaders.

This is the view that is becoming more and more prevelent. Is it any wonder that people are getting fed up?

Do you have any, ANY idea the outrage, the shame, the sheer indescribable fury that come with an accusation like that?

When I was in the army, one of my platoon mates in basic told me a story. Not unlike what happened to those lacrosse players at Duke. He told me that the only thing worse than haveing someone call him the N word was being called a rapist.

Tell me renee, one of the feminist movments more visable leaders called your children rapists. How does that make you feel?

Renee said...

@ lujlp

Okay now I am irritated...
1) It is spelled VAGINA and I love mine
2) Clearly you are here to work your agenda and don't give a rats ass about what I am actually saying. This conversation is about fissures in feminism and the fact that there are different kinds of feminist theory and you give me they called me a rapist.
3) Try staying on topic
4) The point of this post is that groups like NOW don't represent ALL women they only claim too. You would know that if you actually bothered to read, rather than striking the comment button so that you could immediately start working an agenda. If you are not going to actually bother to read the post and think about its message reserve your commentary. I am out of patience with disconnected ridiculous, fragmented thoughts.
5)Don't ever bring my children into any conversation to prove a point with me. They are not some tool that you can use at will. It is disgusting, and not worthy of commenting on
6) If you have something valid and worthy, say it. I will defend your right to disagree with me, to the very end, but taking my posts to work a mens right agenda, and not even bothering to stay on topic ( damn repeating myself but I am pissed the hell off) is low.

lujlp said...

First of all I'm glad your irritated, it means I stuck a cord somewhere and forced you to confront something you didnt want to.

1 - I love vagina as well, but my spelling sucks

2 - I find it odd that you proudly admit you have an agenda but are upset that someone else might have one that is different than yours

3 - I was on topic

4 - I understand the point of the post. Different branches of feminist thought, everyone has different experiences, etc etc.

But you said a few things in your post that stood out.
>>The fissures in feminism have largely been a private affair
>>the response I get back is usually framed within the idea that vagina equals one large collective brain. The hive sort of mentality that is attributed to feminism is harmful.
>>Instead of seeing the fractures as airing dirty laundry

I gave you a glaring example of exactly why you get the hive brain mentality response.

You have a leader in the movment accuse all men of gang rape and those who disagreed (and I pray that some did disagree) stayed quite because they felt any disagreement should be kept behind closed doors.

And viola, you get people assuming that all feminists agree with the statment.

5 - I'd like to thank you for giving yet another example of why you get the hive brain mentality response. I will admit using your kids was a cheap shot, it was intended as such, but I noticed something very telling.
You are more upset that I used them as an example than you are that a fellow feminist labled them as gang rapists. I understand your anger with me, but I find your lack of anger with Pappas odd to say the least.

6 - I'm sorry but I feel my post was directly on topic, you said you were tired of the hive mentality response and I gave an example of why you get it. And here's the rub, you never disagreed with it. You claim NOW dosent speak for all women but in your whole response you never once said that Pappas was wrong to make such a horrible claim.

Again I'll ask. And you wonder why you get the hive mentality response?

Amy Alkon said...

I'm against feminism because I'm against discrimination against men or anyone, and feminism is, far too often, a big whine for special treatment under the guise of equal treatment. It's also, very often, a cover for man-hating; for example, Diana Russell's contention that “a considerable amount of marital sex is probably closer to the rape end of the continuum.”

If you're a lesbian, fine. If you're going to paint heterosexual sex as a criminal act by a man most of the time, you're scum, and anybody who's for justice, fairness and equality, should stand up against you.

Wait: Do we hear even a squeak against Diana Russell from the feminists? The feminists of color, the Wite-Out-colored feminists? Anybody?

Nope. Because feminism is about promoting injustice not stopping it. Which is why I'm a proud "colluder."

(How ridiculous!)

Anonymous said...

I am really tired of people ( a suprising number of them women) talking about poor, mistreated men and misanthropy etc etc. I've yet to EVER see a man afraid to walk to his car, or walk the dog, because he might be attacked. Groups of young women walking dow the street don't cause people to cross the road or duck into stores just to avoid them, people do that all the time to avoid large groups of young men. Why? One is dangerous, the other is not.

Until we have 51% of Congress, and 51% of the executives in large companies, and every-other President, and 51% of law enforcement, the women's movement is not over. We are the majority of the population, why are we the minority (tiny, tiny minority) of the positions of power? Because men set up the systems and still run them.

This democratic primary campaign is a rerun of the suffrage movement. Women were told to take a back-burner, we need to help black men first. Hillary had the majority of the popular vote (yes, that means MORE people total voted for her than Obama) but because the party leaders decided a black man was more important, he won.

Amy Alkon said...

Here's my post about your post:

http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2008/06/17/im_a_colluder.html

Also, per the link lujlp left, I don't want a woman president (that would be sexist) I just want a good president. Of any gender or color.

lujlp said...

@ Anonymous

Guess what, men will cross the road or duck into shops to avoid a large group of young men.

How about until women make up 51% of the homeless, 51% of dead combat soilders, 51% of prisoners, and everyother serial killer the womans movement is not over.

What you suggest is not euqality it is comunism. You want equality of outcome not equality of options.

When women run for public office they win more often then not.

Ever think the reason so many women are concerned with men is beacuse they see what is happening to the men in their famillies?

You say you want half of congress? Run for office, when women run they are more likley to be voted into office than a man.

You say you want have of company executives? Put in the work hours that take you away from time with your kids and husband, when your done with work go out for drinks with the co workers to increase your social network.

You want every other president? Why, your vote doesnt count, everyone who runs is selected by party leaders and according to federal law the electorasl college is under no obligation to cast their ballots in a manner which reflects their respective districts. And the reason Clinton lost was because of her entitlement attitude, not her gender.

You say you want half of law enforcment- get a job as a cop.

Women have equal choice, and if they choose not to make the sacrifices required to bring about the changes you want - how is that mens fault?

If women choose to raise kids, or get a job in the science feild instead of putting their lives on the line how is that wrong.

You anonymous highlight another reason women are tired of feminists. You are telling women that they are wrong, wrong for making the decisions they made.

Feminists are far more mysoginistic then men

You Asked
We are the majority of the population, why are we the minority (tiny, tiny minority) of the positions of power?

Why not ask why women make up the 'tiny, tiny minority' of the lowest levels of society?

I'll not deny that those in power rig the system so they stay in power.

But I will ask you to consider one thing, renee posted something to the effect that not all women are responsible for everything every branch of feminisim does.

Niether are men. You see the fatal flaw in the myth of the patriarcy is that men in power act to the benifit of all men at the expense of all women.

If this were ture there would not be a shortage in vetrans funding, there would be no homeless men, and men would not be in prison for rape.

I'll let you in on a litte secret, people in power will act in a manner that keeps them in power to the detriment of EVERYBODY, men and women alike

There is no patriarchy - I dare you to prove me wrong

Anonymous said...

Hillary didn't lose because the party leaders decided a black man was more important. Hillary lost because she didn't play the game by the rules (rules that were set up long before anyone knew Obama would be a threat to Hillary).

Delegates were not awarded on a winner-take-all basis (the way Hillary played the game). They were awarded on a percentage basis (that's the way Obama played the game). Hillary ran a great Republican primary campaign. Unfortunately for her, she was running in the Democratic primary.

Hillary acted as if she believed she was entitled to the nomination so she played a half-hearted game until Obama became a real threat and exposed the weakness of her strategy; a weakness caused by Hillary's own complacency.

Football players don't whine to the referee that the ball is shaped funny and if the ball were round, they would have scored. They play with the funny-shaped ball and adjust their strategy to the way the game is played.

If women want 51% of Congress and to be in positions of power, learn the rules and how to play the game. Adjust your strategy to the way the game is played and win the game.

And, before you say it, the rules are not being constantly changed to thwart your newly gained understanding. You learned one rule out of a thousand and thought yourself a brilliant strategist.

Maybe the colluders have learned a few more rules. Instead of vilifying them, learn from them.

Danny said...

I am really tired of people ( a suprising number of them women) talking about poor, mistreated men and misanthropy etc etc. I've yet to EVER see a man afraid to walk to his car, or walk the dog, because he might be attacked. Groups of young women walking dow the street don't cause people to cross the road or duck into stores just to avoid them, people do that all the time to avoid large groups of young men. Why? One is dangerous, the other is not.

You're only tired of it because you're afraid to admit there is some truth to it. I know its hard to realize that men don't have all the cards dealt to them from the get go.


Until we have 51% of Congress, and 51% of the executives in large companies, and every-other President, and 51% of law enforcement, the women's movement is not over. We are the majority of the population, why are we the minority (tiny, tiny minority) of the positions of power? Because men set up the systems and still run them.

Why do people mistake lack of equal opportunity for lack of mixed results? Now if you wanted to make that argument valid you would have pointed out that until women have the same opportunities as men to become law enforcement, CEOs, goverment official, then the women's movement is not over.

This democratic primary campaign is a rerun of the suffrage movement. Women were told to take a back-burner, we need to help black men first. Hillary had the majority of the popular vote (yes, that means MORE people total voted for her than Obama) but because the party leaders decided a black man was more important, he won.

I agree that the electorial college is jacked up but that fact that Obama had the lead in delegates and superdelegates mean nothing to you when it comes to "smashing the patriarchy" right? If the situation was reversed and Clinton got the nod depsite Obama having the lead in popular vote would you still be as upset?


Like Amy Alkon says I want a good competent president. If its a white woman fine. If its an asian man fine. But of course having young girls see women win elections based on their gender alone is a fine way to teach them anything is possible right?

jerry said...

Yes, there are many different movements within feminism, and that's to be expected, but it's often wielded as a cop-out.

When I visit feminist blogs, often times the most arrogant, abusive, illogical, unscientific, and frankly sexist statements are made about others. And no one says a peep about this. When asked why it's okay for a self-proclaimed feminist to claim another person is a rapist, or another person is anti-feminist, or another person is a pedophile, or anti-sex, or a rapist, or anti-woman, or a misogynist, or how one feminist can say that X is bad, while another feminist says that same X is good, what is mostly said in response is:

"feminism is multitudes, I disagree with that other feminist, and they don't represent me."

What happens then Renee is that no feminist fills the need to take any responsibility for statements made for feminism. And many feminists thus feel no social pressure to make sure their views are not sexist, or racist, or abusive, or follow logic or science.

And so you use the "we are multitudes" as a cop-out and a way to avoid having to take responsibility for your statements and the statements made by others in your name.

"Colluder", "misogynist", "self-loathing", "anti-woman" -- all of these are labels and names you shameless use to beat woman over the head who disagree with you.

Instead of listening to them and what they say is wrong with feminist ideas, you demean them and dehumanize them. Worse: after older feminists, women AND men fought for the equality of everyone, you then go and strip these women of rationality, of being able to make a conscious and intelligent choices in their own behavior and their personal philosophy.

You are not for equal rights. You do not believe that women can make intelligent choices on their own.

You are most likely not a feminist.

You are a sexist, and an authoritarian.

I believe all men and women are rational, effective, agents.

You should try arguing with people on the merits and not just use your vagina to smear them.

Renee said...

Well you have all been busy while I have been out. Sorry for the delay in approval of commentary today everyone, I had personal issues to deal with. At this time since the one common theme that everyone has been referring to has been Lujlp's commentary about NOW, I will take a moment to address it quickly and then return later with a fuller response to others...
When I made my original response to Luljp I will admit to being very disgusted. I repeat, using someones children to prove a point is extremely low. I saw such a vision of red that I barely comprehended much of what he/she (using both so as not to presume gender) said.
I have since taken the time to see the link that was provided. I simply do not see where she called ALL men rapists. Of course if she were to say that, I would call the commentary essentialist but again that is nothing new or extraordinary coming from a radical feminist.Are you claiming that this commentary was made directly to you?
Her article had more to do with the way that women are verbally abused by men in society. I believe that there is some accuracy in this line of thinking. What passes for jocular teasing is often harmful and demeaning.
While NOW is a national organization that presumes to speak on behalf of all women it is not representative of many different feminist theories. In fact they serve as a perfect example of the point I was addressing regarding the impossibility of second/third wave feminism representing ALL women. The desire to create a monolithic woman or present essentialized understandings of gender is something that has been widely critiqued in feminist circles, however largely absent from the public discourse of feminism. This is part of the reason why I have publicly encouraged women that identify as DIY, post structural, anti-racists etc to become more public about their work. These women do not represent the kind of feminism that I associate myself with, and as such hold no legitimacy to articulate on my behalf.

lujlp said...

I'll condense Pappas' statment for you emphasis by me

We've all witnessed scenarios where, on the playground little girls are being taunted by little boys while both girls and boys stand idle, afraid to speak up or even cheering. (As if girls NEVER tease girls)
In short, gang raping of women is commonplace in our culture both physically and metaphorically.
(Teasing girls, if done by boys, is gang rape)
This past week, we witnessed just such a phenomenon(gang rape) involving men who are afraid of a powerful woman.
(Men who dont vote for Clinton are gang rapists)
Let’s put a stop to the psychological “gang banging” of women and girls. Let's stand up and be counted by way of the hard-won votes we can now cast!
(Vote for Clinton lest you to be a gang rapist)


And FYI men verbally 'abuse' men. And women verbally 'abuse' men as well.
It drives me insane, it really does, women claim they want men to treat them no better or worse then they treat other men. And when we do? its abuse or its harassment.

lujlp said...

And here is something I ran across which proves my point on the rape front

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/131060-could-your-frosh-d-date-senior-3.html

Second post down.

First of all, every adult (including older teens) is a potential rapist. That is kind of the definition of the word "potential." I was not speaking of this situation specifically, just the situation in general of an older boy asking out a much younger girl. I was not suggesting that eighteen year olds are more likely to rape than sixteen year olds (though I very stongly suspect this is the case) but that an eighteen year old is more likely to rape a fourteen year old than another eighteen year old.


Translation -
All boys potential rapists
18yr old boys more likely to rape than 16yr old boys
18yr old boys more likley to rape 14yr old girls than 16yr old girls

You were pissed that I mentioned your kids? Try to imagine how it feels to know that millions of people you dont know who will look at you on the street and think to themselves "That might be the guy who molests/rapes/mudrers my daughter/teenager/child/infant"

Can you even imagine the horror?

Anonymous said...

I've yet to EVER see a man afraid to walk to his car, or walk the dog, because he might be attacked. Groups of young women walking dow the street don't cause people to cross the road or duck into stores just to avoid them, people do that all the time to avoid large groups of young men. Why? One is dangerous, the other is not.

Yeah, young women ain't dangerous. That's why we have dozens of books written for girls on how to survive high school girls. Books like "Odd girl out" and "Queen Bees and Wannabes". That's why we have newspaper articles about "girl gang violence rising".

Oh, here's 24 year old woman that tried to kill her husband. I guess she's not dangerous either.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/scottsdale/articles/2008/06/17/20080617sr-manshot17-on.html

Would you please drop this sexist crap? Men and women are equal. Equally smart. Equally stupid. Equally good. Equally bad. Equally as capable of violence.

Sexism stinks.

The Biscuit Queen said...

I am a men's rights activist, and a woman. I am not a colluder. Collude means:

"To act together secretly to achieve a fraudulent, illegal, or deceitful purpose; conspire."

Guess what? You do not get to define what I am. You have no right to foist upon me your labels to discredit and belittle me. What you are doing is abusive and controlling, and all about the power you gain by framing my existance into your point of view.

I also have two sons. I am a men's rights activist because they will be men and they deserve an equal chance to raise a family when they choose, to have fair representation in courts, to attend college, to live free of predudice. We have not had television for 5 years because of the male bashing which was constant. My sons deserve better than to be told they are abusive, immature, foolish, useless and dangerous, all messages they were getting on a daily basis on television.

I could not be a womanist because that means putting my children's needs last, simply because of the gender they were born. Isn't that exactly what feminism was supposed to be fighting AGAINST?

At what point do children become the enemy? When they hit puberty, when they are 16, 18, 21? At what point will they go from being precious little boys to big, evil, dangerous men capable of rape and other violence?

My thought is most boys become good men, just as most girls become good women. Most men are as incapable of rape as most women are incapable of child killing.

Renee said...

Since I first posted about colluders this blog has been inundated with them and a fair number of trolls. I am actually thinking of dedicating a weekly post to hatemail. The colluders have been particularly vitriolic in their protestations. Their ability to identify with men over women continues to astound me. In fact it reminds me a line from the move The Usual Suspects..."the greatest trick the devil ever did was to convince the world that he does not exist." I thought today would be a good time to break down a typical colluder statement.

The Biscuit Queen: I am a men's rights activist, and a woman. I am not a colluder. Collude means:
"To act together secretly to achieve a fraudulent, illegal, or deceitful purpose; conspire."

Did you notice the word conspire at the end of your definition...Yes if you are a woman active in mens rights you are conspiring against women. That would make you a colluder. This is by your own definition, and not mine.

The Biscuit Queen: Guess what? You do not get to define what I am. You have no right to foist upon me your labels to discredit and belittle me. What you are doing is abusive and controlling, and all about the power you gain by framing my existence into your point of view.

A woman that advocates men's right is claiming discreditation when every action that you take limits the advance of women...laughable. If you don't like the label the simple solution is not to collude. Of course when women challenge men we are abusive and controlling. How dare I step outside of my kitchen and think for myself. So tell me what is it like to live in Stepford?

The Biscuit Queen: I also have two sons. I am a men's rights activist because they will be men and they deserve an equal chance to raise a family when they choose, to have fair representation in courts, to attend college, to live free of prejudice.

What's your point here...Of course a feminist wants equality for all and therefore we would agree that those are things that everyone is entitled to.

The Biscuit Queen: We have not had television for 5 years because of the male bashing which was constant. My sons deserve better than to be told they are abusive, immature, foolish, useless and dangerous, all messages they were getting on a daily basis on television.

Since men control the media I suggest that if you don't like the message that your children are receiving Madam colluder you address your concerns there. Maybe your friends can explain to you how misdirection works. You see, men may be portrayed as saliva dripping idiots however we all know that this is a direct contradiction to power dynamics, globally. The other thing to note that along side with the saliva drooling model, in the top rated Nielson hits men are either over represented or in positions of power. How will they survive all of that unbalanced press?

"For the week of June 2-8, the top 10 shows, their networks and viewerships: NBA Finals Game 2: L.A. Lakers vs. Boston, ABC, 13.5 million; NBA Finals Game 1: L.A. Lakers vs. Boston, ABC, 13.38 million; "Two and a Half Men," CBS, 9.81 million; "60 Minutes," CBS, 9.81 million; "Million Dollar Password," CBS, 9.62 million; "CSI: Crime Scene Investigation," CBS, 9.61 million; "So You Think You Can Dance" (Wednesday), Fox, 9.56 million; "House," Fox, 9.44 million; "Hell's Kitchen," Fox, 9.36 million; "So You Think You Can Dance" (Thursday), Fox, 9.25 million."

Biscuit Queen: I could not be a womanist because that means putting my children's needs last, simply because of the gender they were born. Isn't that exactly what feminism was supposed to be fighting AGAINST?

Massive projection... please explain to me how teaching your children to respect women and to treat them as an equal is putting them last? You also have no clear understanding of womanist. Keep believing what men want you to believe. Hey is the kool aid that you sip sugar free because all women need to conscious of body image you know?

The Biscuit Queen: At what point do children become the enemy? When they hit puberty, when they are 16, 18, 21? At what point will they go from being precious little boys to big, evil, dangerous men capable of rape and other violence?

Well since you don't find it necessary to raise them to respect, or honor women from the minute they understand their male privilege and use it to oppress women. What you fail to understand is that feminist don't see men as the enemy. There are feminist males everywhere you turn. I have been with one for over 18 years now. No man can walk away from their privilege but they can change the ways in which they negotiate it.

Biscuit Queen: My thought is most boys become good men, just as most girls become good women. Most men are as incapable of rape as most women are incapable of child killing.

Looking away from your gender essentialist claims....Most men that own their gender privilege are not capable of those acts against women. If a man feels entitled to a womans body he will rape plain and simple, and he will be emotional abusive.

But you just feel free to spew all of your nonsense. I believe that free speech even applies to the deluded. I will once again suggest to those colluders reading this blog, investigate all branches of feminism before you decide that it does not suit your needs. The claims of Biscuit Queen against womanism is further proof that she has no idea what it stands for but of course because it was started by a woman it has to be a bad thing.
I would bet money that off of the top of her head she could not list the organizing principles, goals or outcomes. This is because it has become fashionable to hate with only partial knowledge. Don't believe the media, don't believe misogynistic men, research for yourself and make up your own mind. Who knows you might find it fun to think for yourself for a change.

Danny said...

This is because it has become fashionable to hate with only partial knowledge.

That kinda sounds like some brands of feminism. Take a negative fact that is true about men and make a gross generalization.

The orginal premise of feminism makes perfect sense. Ensure that equal and fair rights, opportunities, laws apply to both women and men. Problem is over the years some of the man haters got a hold of feminism ans twisted it to its own evil and vile ends.

And that recent post of your Cunt vs. Nigger. I agree with some of it but not all. I'll get to that when I get home from work tonight.

Renee said...

Reply @ danny

The orginal premise of feminism makes perfect sense. Ensure that equal and fair rights, opportunities, laws apply to both women and men.

SO then you have no problem with Liberal feminism...there might be some hope for you

Problem is over the years some of the man haters got a hold of feminism ans twisted it to its own evil and vile ends.

I assume from this you have a problem with radical feminism. Yes I take issue with some of their claims as well, however a lot of the outcomes of their work, battered womens shelters, making marital rape an offense, and removal of questioning a rape victims previous sexual history have been good for women. Yes they are loud gender essentialist, however they do not represent the entirety of the feminist movement. This highlights the point that I was trying to make. There are different feminist theories each with different organizing principles, goals and out comes. None are perfect and no one theory represents all women.

Renee said...

That kinda sounds like some brands of feminism. Take a negative fact that is true about men and make a gross generalization.

A gross generalization is it. The average person is not even aware that different forms of feminism exist, how can you explain the shock that the second/third wave divide caused? People don't even bother to qualify their statements to say things like radical/DIY/third wave or post structural feminists believe..the sentence usually starts with feminists believe. This is a problem as not all kinds of feminism have the same goals. If you hate something you should do so from a position of knowledge and not ignorance.

Danny said...

I assume from this you have a problem with radical feminism.

I honestly couldn't tell you since trying to get someone to define their feminism is harder than pulling their teeth out with a rusty butter knife.



If you hate something you should do so from a position of knowledge and not ignorance.


Agreed. But I'll tell you the problem. It is pretty rare that feminists theses days will identify their feminism. In my experience trying to get a definition of someone's feminism is like trying to hit a moving target while you're moving.

I've seen countless feminists say the likes of,
"Well they're not a true feminist!"
"That's not MY feminism."
"That's THEIR feminism, not MINE."

But I almost never anyone actually define their own feminism. And mind you these same feminists are the ones that hate for people to make generalizing critisisms of feminism (but generalizing praise seems to be just fine, funny that) but will in a hearbeat let the ramblings of a single MRA (that would be Men's Rights Activists) define the entire movement.

Lesley Benson said...

I would have to agree that there certainly are many different forms of feminism, some premises and agendas being more favourable than others, depending on your perspective. I did not realize until I studied feminism basics in a contemporary socail theory class, just how much diversity exists within feminism. The most basic premise of most strands of feminism is the need to deconstruct the neo-liberal ideologies that pervade our thinking, to eradicate the social, political, and economic marginalization of women, on both national and global levels. If you think equality exists, a quick look at national and global statistics in most countries, from income disparities to reported instances of violence against women, to criminologists estimations of unreported rape, sexual assaults, and domestic abuse should convince anyone that whatever equality exists is theoretical, at best.

Equality between the sexes cannot be achieved, for example, by subjecting both men and women to the same laws. The outcome will still be plagued with disparities because the groups are not equal to begin with. If you want to think of it as a race, guys have a head start. Affirmative action strategies are a form of "special treatment" (if you wish to call it that)that is necessary and meant to level the playing field.
We must remember that ideological equality is not equality in outcome, and equality in outcome is the whole point. We must not confuse the two. Ideological equality is being used, by some, as a repressive tool, to convince people that our legal system treats everyone equally, in effort to passify the masses.

As for the diversity that exists within feminism, there is so much diversity that I am not sure which strand I most closely relate to. I suppose I am somewhere between an eco- and socialist feminist, although I don't wish to close my mind to other variences because I have barely scratched the surface in my studies on feminism. I am okay with taking aspects of different theoretical standings to help me develop my own perspective, one that does not betray my own experiences and desires.

Anonymous said...

This piece is really great and I'm glad that you're adressing the issues. I get sick and tired of my female friends telling me that men's lives are harder because they are doing worse in school and the suicide rate among young men is higher than for any other group. They are priveleged women, and it is often the women with other benefits that they can use to pay off their gender disadvantage with (such as money or whiteness) that are "colluders" in my experience.

As for the reasons given to me above; male suicides are high and that's a tragedy but young women of that age group are being murdered by the husbands or lovers. Spousal murder of women is so much higher than of men it can only be a gender issue. You could argue that neither of these groups of deaths are sadder but perhaps the pressure of patriarchy forcing young men to live up to masculine ideals that are unpracticable is at fault?

In terms of education too. Girls are doing better than boys, young women are getting better degrees than young men. But you know what? The recruitment for graduate jobs still favours the men, young male graduates get higher salaries and promoted quicker than young women (this is even before maternity/ paternity has become an issue). So the "failure" of boys' education is not really causing long term problems for boys.

Of course these are UK phenomenon, I don't know if it's similar in the US but it's an example of some issues used by antifeminists that, for me, don't challenge the need to fight patriarchy.

Also, these issues are very skewed. In the stats regarding boys failing at school the downturn is mainly in middle class white boys with their female equivalents doing better. The girls tend to be disadvataged in most other racial and socioeconomic groups. This shows too that the "success" of feminism resulting in the backlash is infact only partial. That wealthy white women tend to have a better life (than their mothers, I still don't believe that it's better than men). Women around the world, as a whole, are at a disadvantage to men.


lujlp said that if there really was a patriarchy then men would not be in prison for rape. Just because the law recognises that women are human beings does not mean that it considers them equal to men. In fact a quick browse through rape trial information and conviction statistics would tell you the exact opposite.
Also lujlp says that women should be prepared to put in the extra hours if they want to get to positions of power etc. Well lots of women do. Mothers, whether their partner stays at home with the kids or not and whether they put in the same hours as their male colleagues or not, are far less likely to get promoted. This is sexism it isn't anything to do with lack of effort. Parenthood never has the same effect on a man's career regardless of childcare responsibility.

I don't blame individual men for patriarchy. Patriarchy is a culture that we live in not that we subscribe to. I have a male partner and male brothers and a male parent. I don't want them, or any man, to be at a disadvantage. In the vast majority of cases they are not. Family law and paternity rights are the only exeptions and they come from patriarchal assumptions about gender roles too.

Also, the reason that there are more homeless men than women visible on the streets is partially that homeless women are more likely to be murdered or raped so that has cut the population as well as forcing the remainder to make themselves scarce. There are many factors behind our understandings.

Sorry this was so long.

Ashley said...

1) Renee: All excellent points. Thanks for the post. One problem is that the media loves to pick a random "representative," and there are a few qualities they seem to go for: white middle to upperclassness, boobiliciousness, controversy and divisiveness. There must be some way for us to combat that, but I think it is often the reason some feminists become prominent and others don't.

2) Various: "Men's Rights" are a load. No I won't explain myself. I like to see you turn purple.

3) Jerry: I didn't know I could use my vagina to smear people. This is a fascinating new function I will be exploring.

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