Comments on Womanist Musings: Ssssh Male Privilege Is Meant To Be A Secret

I've been reading this blog for a few months now a...

2008-09-13T17:16:24.972-04:00

I've been reading this blog for a few months now and it has become one of my favorite feminist blogs. Almost every post here is well-written and thought-provoking. To me, you make a lot of sense. I'm glad you won't be discouraged by those who get nasty in their attempts to silence you. Keep writing! You have people reading out here who appreciate what you have to say. Maybe we just don't comment often enough.

MEADSTER: YOU HAVE CROSSED THE LINE. BRINGING MY F...

2008-09-09T23:33:14.181-04:00

MEADSTER: YOU HAVE CROSSED THE LINE. BRINGING MY FAMILY INTO ANY CONVERSATION IS SIMPLY NOT ACCEPTABLE. YOU ARE NO LONGER WELCOME AT WOMANIST MUSINGS AND ANY FURTHER COMMENTARY LEFT HERE BY YOU WILL IMMEDIATELY BE DELETED.

Renee, you condemn parents for spanking but I am w...

2008-09-09T23:03:08.443-04:00

Renee, you condemn parents for spanking but I am willing to bet that your treatment of your children amounts emotional abuse more damaging than the so-called physical abuse of the average spanking parent. After all your children are boys, males, future men and clearly males can do no right, never deserve praise or kind words for anything. Your partner may get off on that sort of treatment, but your boys did not choose to be born to a man-hating mother. Of course, maybe you make exceptions for your own children. One can hope.

Renee: brilliant post. I'm in full agreement. I wa...

2008-09-08T11:53:38.063-04:00

Renee: brilliant post. I'm in full agreement. I was horrified to see the (somewhat nonsensical) vitriol spewed in the comments section of your earlier post, and it's great that you posted this response.

The compelling thing about your argument is that it reflects the problem with most minority politics: those in the majority often do not understand "what all the fuss is about." (In saying this I, of course, realize that feminism is not technically a minority politic; however, patriarchal oppression has made it such despite the fact that women are actually in the majority in terms of hard numbers.) For example, the glaring falsehood--constructed and maintained by the racial majority--that you can pull yourself up by your bootstraps in America regardless of your race. And that if you don't, you haven't tried hard enough (i.e. you're lazy). Or the idea that same-sex couples are seeking "extra privileges" when they lobby for marriage equality. Obviously, these issues aren't completely equivalent with--nor are they completely separate from, in my opinion--the tenets of feminism, but they occurred to me as parallel examples of blind privilege and its effects.

Also, @Sandalstraps: I know you were addressing Renee, but if I may, I'd like to respond quickly. My father was a stay-at-home dad, so I get where you're coming from, but I have a caveat. I'm sure it's very true that some stay-at-home dads feel the stigma of our patriarchal society. However, to me at least, feminism is a more global issue than whether or not one is at home doing chores. The idea that stay-at-home dads should be lauded by feminists (and I realize that's not entirely what you're saying) for taking care of the children/home negates the whole point. For me, domestic labor shouldn't be seen as "women's work" in the first place, so if I were to praise a man for doing chores just because he's a guy and that's not his societal "place," it would just be re-inscribing the idea that women belong in the home and men belong in the workplace.

Jana,If Renee is trying to alert everyone to male ...

2008-09-08T10:30:25.406-04:00

Jana,

If Renee is trying to alert everyone to male privilege, okay cool I'm fine with that. My point is every argument doesn't have to be an angry one. Sometimes you can say what you need to without being nasty and angry, which I think some of her comments were. I also think rape should not be mixed in with male privilege because it is a hostile and violent act. Most male privilege is exercised right in the home where a man and woman live together in the name of love. To bring up rape in this argument let's a bunch of "good men" off the hook for the male privilege the benefit from.

As for the joke, I stand by it. It actually is a demonstration of male privilege. DMX has an affair with a woman which produces a child, he tells a magazine and his wife that the woman raped him (she by the way believed it or least said she did). That fact that story has been entertained at all by his wife and Sister 2 Sister is an example of male privilege. So...stop thinking with your anger! Starting using all your sensibilities, and maybe we can stop some of this male privilege.

Jewelry Rockstar:Some things in life, like Rape CA...

2008-09-08T00:19:53.603-04:00

Jewelry Rockstar:

Some things in life, like Rape CANNOT be lightened up, nor should they be. As for your honey and vinegar analogy, the Western world has had enough Honey, and are stuck in their ignorance. People like Renee, are not trying to attract bees per se, but trying to wake them the fuck up.

"Men are responsible for rape not women"except for...

2008-09-07T20:15:45.192-04:00

"Men are responsible for rape not women"

except for the woman who raped DMX, hehehe...
http://news.softpedia.com/news/DMX-Was-Raped-36154.shtml

I am sorry for the joke, I just wanted to lighten it up over here. It's so heavy. I know you are over here fighting for all womankind, but you can attract more bees with honey instead of vinegar. I know, I know, we all have our purpose and I believe you are living in yours. Keep living and growing.

@WeblogLearner Essentially what you are engaged in...

2008-09-07T19:33:03.607-04:00

@WeblogLearner

Essentially what you are engaged in is victim blaming. It is offensive. Men are responsible for rape not women. It is the rapist to which you should attach your anger. Womanist Musings is meant to be a safe space for rape survivors and your commentary threatens that. This is your only warning...do not engage in victim blaming on this blog.

"Are you raped? Why? Study self defense."The impli...

2008-09-07T16:54:54.907-04:00

"Are you raped? Why? Study self defense."

The implication here, that all rapes can be prevented by the victim, is offensive in the extreme. Studying self-defense is not even close to a full solution to rape. For example, many women are raped when they are drunk, drugged, or passed out. Unconscious women can't fight back.

For another, most women are raped by people they know and trust to some degree. Would you be willing to fight back against your boyfriend? They can be feeling confused and shocked that someone they trust would violate them like that. Life just isn't so simple as "someone hurts me so I hurt him back."

Mostly, though, that you put the onus on women to prevent rape shows that you are not a friend to women. It is the responsibility of men to not rape, rather than the responsibility of women to fight back hard enough when men try.

It is not the problem of men alone. Women have the...

2008-09-07T12:13:09.483-04:00

It is not the problem of men alone. Women have their own part. REVOLT! Yes! I am a woman! No one can hurt us without our permission. Are you hit? HIT BACK! Are you raped? Why? Study self defense. Your family is so dogmatic? REBEL! The thing is, change are difficult to be achived. SOme force are necessary. So women, it's our call... because no man wuld go down their thrown so we need to pull them down.

Renee,I'm going to tread dangerous ground here...I...

2008-09-07T09:18:21.149-04:00

Renee,

I'm going to tread dangerous ground here...

I am trying to own my male privilege and my white privilege. Simply put, by virtue of being a white, middle-class, well-educated man, I enjoy a great deal of privilege, and - after having been exposed to bell hooks and others - I am on the road to learning how to own that privilege. To be mindful of it, and in so doing, to stop accidentally or intentionally using it as a weapon against others, or as a tool for the perpetuation of privilege.

I also recognize that what you are responding to here is a very real phenomenon; men using their own private behavior to deny systemic problems and structural violence. Simply put, the argument that I as an individual have never committed some overt act of physical or sexual violence, therefore you feminists and womanists need to stop "whining" about patriarchy, is bullshit. I acknowledge it for what it is: bullshit. To use examples of private behavior (self-reported private behavior, no less) to undermine claims of structural violence and systemic oppression is dishonest bullshit. They are either lying to themselves, lying to everyone else, or both.

That said, part of this post hurt me. Now, perhaps I need to be hurt. No doubt part of owning privilege entails taking some licks. But I think something that you wrote here was unfair, and I look forward to your setting me straight on it, if in fact I need to be set straight for still clinging to my privilege:

To the stay at home dads that are diapering, folding laundry and cooking meals, domestic labour does not absolve you of male privilege. I know that you want a pat on the back for being secure enough in your masculinity to do "women's work" but you won't get one from me. The very fact that you feel entitled to recognition for performing domestic labour that women have done for centuries is an exercise in privilege.

Having not read through all of the comments on the post this is responding to, I'm sure I don't have the entire context for this quote. Also, though I am a stay-at-home Dad, this doesn't entirely apply to me, since I have never asked for anyone outside my nuclear family to respect or appreciate the work I do in and around the house. I don't need a societal pat-on-the-back, nor do I need the approval of anyone outside my family (that is, the family I participate in, not the family I own) for my domestic labor.

That said, as a stay-at-home Dad, I can say - at least anecdotally - that those like me who challenge the social construct of what it means to be a man find themselves on the wrong end of male privilege as relates to that aspect of our selves. I say that not to say that in other aspects of my life - and there are many - I don't benefit from privilege. Rather, I say that to say this: in my domestic role, and in that role only, my status as a man challenging the social construct of "man" puts me at odds with those men who virulently cling to patriarchy.

This is no less true for other men, who - many in stronger forms - challenge the social construct of "man." Here we can be allies, yet the paragraph referenced above read as a kind of hostility.

I don't want to make too much of that, nor to try to assert here some kind of privilege. I also certainly don't mean to say that you shouldn't be hostile. You of course have that right, and should assert yourself by any means you and you alone deem fit.

I just want to assert that though women are the primary victims of patriarchy, and though that should never be denied or minimized, men who challenge the social construct of "man" created and reinforced by patriarchy find themselves also - though in a different and often (but not always - see, for example, gay men, who are victims not only of heterosexist homophobia, but also of patriarchy, in that their very existence denies a certain essential myth of true manhood) lesser way.

I do not expect you to write on the plight of men who stand with you against and under patriarchy, nor do I claim any special status as such. But, if, in the midst of all the other great work you are doing, you can be sensitive to that, that would be welcome.

When I was teaching, I remember how resistant many...

2008-09-07T00:16:49.065-04:00

When I was teaching, I remember how resistant many of the men were to the idea of male privilege (I taught college sociology to working adults, ranging in age from late teens to late forties). Along the lines of *I* change diapers and *I* go to PTA meetings and *I* would never date-rape a woman. We (including other students who get it) work really hard to get them to see how their male privilege has a strong systemic component, that we live in a society that privileges their needs.

Many times, I could tell that the conversation is useless, that a male student will simply not budge. But there are times when I see the stirrings of thought, a hint that maybe the student might reconsider his position. It doesn't happen all the time, but often enough to keep me optimistic about the possibilities of change in the long run.

Yes, men absolutely have their privilege in this w...

2008-09-06T23:51:41.475-04:00

Yes, men absolutely have their privilege in this world. It's kind of funny trying to explain it to them though. Just like explaining White privilege to Whites. I think it must be hard to explain privilege to someone who was born with it, but also has their own life struggles to the point where it doesn't feel like they have gotten anything special.

Try to explain to an American living in a housing project that they have it better than most in the world. It would be very hard. They will never believe you.

Preach Renee!!!

2008-09-06T22:47:13.266-04:00

Preach Renee!!!

I'm sad and angry that you had to write a post lik...

2008-09-06T21:03:23.294-04:00

I'm sad and angry that you had to write a post like this because men who supposedly read your blog don't want to acknowledge their privilege.

Great post! I always approve of putting teh menz i...

2008-09-06T16:53:47.940-04:00

Great post! I always approve of putting teh menz in their place. They talk like we are just a bunch of uppity bitches that never confronted our own priviledge. Their statements assuring themselves that they are mighty and awesome and that everything they possess was won by the virtue of their awesomeness and not thousands of years of brutality is just pathetic beyond words. Some people are truly beyond help and understanding. It's better though, to continue pissing them off, even if they'll never get it.

Great post. I loved this:"When men rise up and sp...

2008-09-06T16:39:06.703-04:00

Great post. I loved this:
"When men rise up and speak out about tyranny they are worshipped as heroes and visionaries, when women do it about patriarchy we are illiterate ball busting bitches who just don't know our place. "
Exactly.

Also, I had no idea that more than half of farmers are women. I believe you, but can you show me where you got that fact?