Comments on Womanist Musings: John Kerry and Tar Baby

damn renee, i loved you at feministe and put you i...

2008-07-27T22:17:00.000-04:00

damn renee, i loved you at feministe and put you in my links but havent been able to keep up. now i follow the link from feministing and i see the sort of dumb fucking trolls you have to deal with and i wish i had the time to read you every single day so i can tell you how brilliant you are.

and as a pasty white girl, id like to tell every white person here bitching about "cracker" and being singled out for being white to study up on privilege and learn what racism actually is. its a system. if you have white privilege it means that the system is working for you, not against you. i could care less if a handful of POC have called you cracker, cos that wont stop you from finding a job or finding housing or get you pulled over while driving.

renee, sorry to ramble, i just despise ignorance.

@Kelly, thank you and welcome to Womanist Musings

2008-07-26T21:15:00.000-04:00

@Kelly, thank you and welcome to Womanist Musings

Renee, thank you for a thoughtful post and for you...

2008-07-26T20:47:00.000-04:00

Renee, thank you for a thoughtful post and for your perseverance and patience in trying to have an intellectual conversation by addressing so many of these ridiculous and infuriating responses that reek of un-aware privilege.

I don't understand why it's so hard for people just to listen to a perspective and try to understand that even if that word has no history to them, and seems neutral to them that it is still possible that word might be oppressive to someone else. And then is it so hard to avoid the use of that word and to be able to critique a public figure that does not adhere to an inclusive language?

For all of those people who think "it's not a big deal" or that it's "not a priority", then why not just change the way you speak? if it's not that hard then just change it.

I was also linked here by feministing.com by the way. and I love your blog so far....

So, you are the racist. After all, you repeatedly...

2008-07-25T16:10:00.000-04:00

So, you are the racist. After all, you repeatedly said "White man". Does this mean it's ok for a black man to say "tar baby" and "nigger"? Just not whitie. I'm sick of your racism I'm tired of white kids not getting into college because of race quotas, can we have an all white school, or is that racist too? Of course it is. Ans speaking of "free passes" how much did you have to pay for your school?

Renee, first off, wonderful post. Thanks for the ...

2008-07-24T19:27:00.000-04:00

Renee, first off, wonderful post. Thanks for the link at my place.

Words mean things. Period. It doesn't matter what Kerry's intent was, he carelessly used a word that is seriously loaded w/ racist meaning. I am from the far North, and I have only ever heard it used in a racist manner. For fuck's sake there is a reason that you can not find "Song of the South" in stores in it's original form--b/c it is so racist. I remember my grandmother reading me the "Brer Rabbit" story as a child, and even then she explained to me that it is not an acceptable term to use (even though the story clearly uses it's dictionary meaning). I do not accept that it was a randomly chosen word for a children's story, considering the time it was written. There are no coincidences.

Kerry was careless, just like when he (accidentally) told kids they had best study, or that they would wind up in the military Clearly being a veteran it was not his intent to insult members of the military, but he has a bad reputation for not thinking about his words.

The word is racist, pure and simple. Regardless of his intent.

And how privileged some of your commenters must be to assume they get to tell us what are important issues to discuss! I am sorry if their brains can not handle thinking about more than one issue at a time, but I can definitely multi-task.

Well written post.

@sardonic...just in case you are still floating, t...

2008-07-24T19:26:00.000-04:00

@sardonic...just in case you are still floating, to accuse me of not focusing on "important issues" and not scanning the blog is ridiculous...It seems you are only interested in reading something that agrees 100% with your point of view. Womanist musings is about about raising conversation about difficult issues not parroting the popular view. If you can't handle the debate don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. I am certainly not always right but at least I know that I am dedicated to giving voice to people that society has a tendency to marginalize.

@ Renee. No, I haven't scanned your blog, nor wil...

2008-07-24T19:08:00.000-04:00

@ Renee. No, I haven't scanned your blog, nor will I ever again. Feministing.com directed me here. I thought I would find an intellectually stimulating new blog to read. However, after reading your tirade, I am not convinced that any musings you have will be of any interest to me, regardless of how chocked-full of misrepresentations, political correctness, and emotional they are. However, I am thankful that I discovered Larry Geater through this site.

I've never thought "tar baby" was a racist term, m...

2008-07-24T18:54:00.000-04:00

I've never thought "tar baby" was a racist term, maybe because I read the Uncle Remus tales as a kid. But I thought there might be an 'age' element to this so I asked my parents. My father, who's 76, saw absolutely no racial connotation in the word. My mother, who's 64, however, said she was brought to tears by the word as a kid.

As some of the above posters have said, there are innocuous words like "cracker", "prick", or "bitch" (when used to refer to female dogs) which have legitimate meanings, but have illegitimate meanings when used to denigrate people. I suspect, from my mother's southern heritage, that the denigrating use of the term may be driven more regionally which would explain why its not universally considered to be a racist term. It is certainly not equivalent to "nigger", whose use is so bad that even the unrelated & perfectly legitimate word "niggardly" has been banished from polite discourse.

I didn't take offense to "tar baby" when Tony Snow said it. I wasn't offended when Mitt Romney said it, and I see no reason I should be offended now that John Kerry has said it. (And even mom wasn't offended at Kerry's usage).

I'm disappointing in Kerry for using the phrase, b...

2008-07-24T18:39:00.000-04:00

I'm disappointing in Kerry for using the phrase, but also in mainstream media for virtually ignoring his use of the word. Compared to Jackson's recent use of a racial slur/term, it really demonstrates the double standard the media has for black people. I'm not sure exactly where I saw it in the past few days, but the blog compared headlines describing arrested women and their children, and the phrasing used to describe black women was far harsher than for white women. Or how during Katrina, white people were "finding supplies" and black people were "looting."

It seems trite and just semantics, but it's a pervasive issue that's just as serious as homelessness and things like that. I mean, if we want to better society, we have to address it on all levels - not just the "serious" ones.

I guess since "shovel" is a synonym for "spade" in...

2008-07-24T17:07:00.000-04:00

I guess since "shovel" is a synonym for "spade" in its original usage, we rename the suit in the deck of cards shovels. And of course "boon" can always be replaced with "blessing" or "favor." But what about eggplant, is there an acceptable word to use in place of that racist term? Should T. Boone Pickens be forced to change his middle name? How about everyone else with the words Boone or Koon as part of their names (these are fairly common surnames)? Is raccoon an acceptable word or should that be changed. Needless to say I'm sure we're not allowed to refer to hats made from raccoons as "coonskin caps." "Raccoonskin cap" sounds kind of awkward but it will have to do assuming "raccoon" is acceptable. I don't know the answers, since I am merely a white man. All I know is that I should clear every word in my vocabulary with a POC.

Here we go with the racist language..the term "cry...

2008-07-24T16:40:00.000-04:00

Here we go with the racist language..the term "cry racist" is offensive it is just as offensive as telling a woman that they she is "crying rape."

I certainly hope you are using hyperbole. But if that wording is offensive I will try to rember to avoid using it in the future.

@MatthewHere in Memphis I have heard racist use th...

2008-07-24T16:37:00.000-04:00

@Matthew

Here in Memphis I have heard racist use the lable 'Democrat' to mean black. Being a white Democrat it took me quite some time to figure that one out.

@ sardonic I am not attempting to deflect away fro...

2008-07-24T16:32:00.000-04:00

@ sardonic
I am not attempting to deflect away from the argument at hand. I am stating that while people seem to be really committed to discussing this issue, other more pressing issues are occurring. In the list of priorities, for me at least, this is not at the top.

Clearly you have not scanned this blog, it is dedicated to bodies that matter. This means that I focus on poverty, healthcare, sextrade workers, racism, abelism etc..

@Larry
I think the cry of "racism" is not warranted here. I can understand that others might disagree.
Here we go with the racist language..the term "cry racist" is offensive it is just as offensive as telling a woman that they she is "crying rape."

@Matthew I'm not okay with ceding linguistic ground to racists.

It is not a matter of ceding ground. No one is calling Kerry a racist for his use of the term tar baby however it does have racial connotations. Agreeing to this means purging our language of phrases or words that may have the possibility to cause offense. Being racially sensitive means trying to appreciate it when a minority says that this terms other me.

Just FYI, If your links are too long, you can go t...

2008-07-24T16:15:00.000-04:00

Just FYI, If your links are too long, you can go to http://www.tinyurl.com and it will give you a short URL you can use instead.

I shrank your link to this one: http://tinyurl.com/5dw3rq

---------------

Incidentally, I think that while 'tar baby' isn't exactly like 'spade' in terms of having dual uses where one is much more common, it's a far cry from 'n____r'.

Any word can be said with hate. A racist can spew invective against "those damn African-Americans" just as easily as he can against Blacks or Darkies or whatever other slur you care to name. In cases where such words have multiple meanings, I'm not okay with ceding linguistic ground to racists.

And what's wrong with that?It would make bidding i...

2008-07-24T15:24:00.000-04:00

And what's wrong with that?

It would make bidding in bridge difficult.

why not simply say "sticky situation" without resorting to archaic terms that hold racist connotations.

Ignorance

I think the cry of "racism" is not warranted here. I can understand that others might disagree. There is nothing I have said here in defense of Kerry's use of the word 'tar-baby' that could not be said about the use of the word 'niggardly' or 'spade'. In the case of the word 'spade' used in a non racial sense I think even the most racially sensitive would think it ridiculous for us to have to rename the card suit. In the case of the word 'niggardly' I believe that even a racist troll would know in his heart that it is an indefensible racist word regardless of context. I think that 'tar-baby' is closer to 'spade' on this scale of offensiveness than it is to 'niggardly'. I think it is a word where we should take the context into consideration and point out to the offender that he could have chosen his words better but not get on the same level of outrage that we reserve for flagrant offenders. It is possible for a person to be ignorant enough that they intended no offense with 'tar-baby' a defense that is not available to the user of the word 'niggardly' because nobody is that stupid.

I should add: whether or not Kerry knew about the ...

2008-07-24T15:20:00.000-04:00

I should add: whether or not Kerry knew about the double meaning of the term, I think it's important to address that what he said can be interrupted as racially insensitive, so that he or anyone else doesn't use the term again. I'm just not sure he's at fault is he didn't know of the double meaning.

Damn link. But, the Angry Black Woman has great re...

2008-07-24T15:17:00.000-04:00

Damn link. But, the Angry Black Woman has great resources on racism and how to participate in threads on it.

I hope this link works. http://web.archive.org/web...

2008-07-24T15:15:00.000-04:00

I hope this link works.
http://web.archive.org/web/20070108084300/http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/607897.html

While more pressing issues may be occurring, at this time and place we're having a discussion about use of the word "tar baby". Renee has touched upon homelessness, the uninsured, etc. But this specific topic is about Kerry and tar baby and it is deflection to bring up more "pressing" issues when this obviously affects people to see a former presidential candidate using such language.

You say the racist meaning of tar baby is decades ...

2008-07-24T15:14:00.000-04:00

You say the racist meaning of tar baby is decades old, but the non-racist meaning is at least a century old, and indeed, originates in African folklore.

Note: I don't mean all people from the ghetto are ...

2008-07-24T15:10:00.000-04:00

Note: I don't mean all people from the ghetto are "ghettoized gang bangers." But I think everyone knows the people I'm talking about. I know, it's classist. I think classism, is legitimate, though. That's because while there are poor people who are decent hard-working people doing their best to improve their situation, and there are some rich people who are destructive assholes, in general social class is a good predictor of behavior.

@dao...the link didn't work for me. ??I am not at...

2008-07-24T15:08:00.000-04:00

@dao...the link didn't work for me. ??

I am not attempting to deflect away from the arguement at hand. I am stating that while people seem to be really committed to discussing this issue, other more pressing issues are occuring. In the list of priorities, for me at least, this is not at the top.

It's entirely possible that John Kerry was ignoran...

2008-07-24T15:05:00.000-04:00

It's entirely possible that John Kerry was ignorant of the double meaning of the word. I have never heard the term "tar baby" used as a racial slur and, until reading this blog, wouldn't have recognized it as such. If Kerry was aware of the double meaning, he was indeed being insensitive. If not, I'm not sure he's at much fault.

Larry, I basically agree with everything you say h...

2008-07-24T15:03:00.000-04:00

Larry, I basically agree with everything you say here. On your own blog where you call Obama "our candidate" I would not include myself, if I vote for a presidential candidate I'll probably write in Ron Paul. I find myself in an odd postition defending John Kerry or for that matter John McCain. But fair is fair, no matter what I think of their politics in general.

Renee is not the spokesperson for all people of color. I doubt if ALL are offending by the use of the term "Tar Baby" in this context. I don't know that there is even any proof that a majority are.

However, while I don't see any evidence of Kerry being racist, there is no doubt that some liberals are. A few years back I saw a psychologist who was as far left as you can get without being a communist. He reveled in his identity as a "persecuted" Jew like he was doing a Woody Allen routine, but when it came to talking about other people's ethnic background he was like a left-wing Archie Bunker (though generally much less funny). He would make a lot of comments about Irish Catholics, which I didn't mind but found stupid. He would also tell me that some obnoxious butt-heads who happened to be Irish Catholic were my people, which I did find kind of annoying(I am not currently a practicing Catholic but I was at the time; my ethinc background is actually mixed Irish and Italian, but he seemed to always forget the Italian because he had trouble with the concept of the melting pot). He also had ways of identifying Pennsylvania Dutch people on sight (Pennsylvania Dutch for those who don't know are not actually Dutch but descendants of early German immigrants to PA) When I asked him how he could tell them apart from other people of German descent he told me his list of attributes. I don't remember any except one, according to him they are all fat. I do remember thinking he sounded a lot like Anti-Semites talking about how to identify Jews.

But the worst thing he ever said was a question he asked just before I moved into my current residence. This place, a condo, is the first home I ever owned. He asked about the development that it is part of "They don't have any Black people there do they?" In fact they do but they are decent, hard working people not ghettoized gang bangers. I was too stunned to respond with the harsh criticism he deserved. I did tell him that I would rather live near well-mannered Black people than rude, destructive, or even criminal white people (who certainly are not in short supply). I also asked why he would say such a thing - his response, "They can drive down property values." How the fuck can they drive down property values if they're already there?! For a man with an advanced degree he sure was a dumb-ass.

"So, while the U.S. seems to be debating this stat...

2008-07-24T14:58:00.000-04:00

"So, while the U.S. seems to be debating this statement by Kerry, children remain hungry and uninsured, homelessness is still an issue, and we are still at war with Iraq. Can we focus on a real issue, please?"

Please refer to #4. Deflect attention away from the specific criticism: http://web.archive.org/web/20070108084300/http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/607897.html

"If we were to accept your usage rules no white ma...

2008-07-24T14:56:00.000-04:00

"If we were to accept your usage rules no white man would be able to refer to the card suit spades as spades because that name had been used as a racial slur at one time."

And what's wrong with that? Language and words hold power and I think it appropriate that white men be called out when they use racist terms whether they are ignorant or not. As Renee stated, whether he was using tar baby to mean "a sticky situation" then why not simply say "sticky situation" without resorting to archaic terms that hold racist connotations? Why are we so quick to defend Kerry? Because he's "on our side" as a liberal and a democrat? No one is infallible and I think it is right to call him out on using this sort of racist language.